I have almost finished listening to the latest episode of Galactic Suburbia, a great podcast that manages to raise a feminist viewpoint unthreateningly. Indeed I have to wonder if the idea of militant, man hating feminism is a result of severe poisoning of the well by threatened conservatives with vested interests. In much the same way that atheists get called militant(when generally they are being vocal).
However, and I think it was Alisa (paraphrasing here you should really go and you know LISTEN to HER) who still voiced some sadness/annoyance that it was a man who had said what women had been talking about for YEARS.
Why is it that he gets listened to?
I seem to remember a skills coach teaching other women how to talk like a man, not just words but inflection. If I recall correctly, men generally make statements, women often have an upward inflection that makes even statements sound like a question - thereby suggesting uncertainty.
I dug around for some studies, but haven’t stumbled across anything yet.
I did, however, come across a post on whether men can call themselves feminists or allies. On the one hand I feel that If I call myself a feminist its appropriation, that by talking about feminist or gender issues I am perpetuating the problem (I am a man and you will listen to me, while I tell you all about feminism) on the other hand I don’t want to shrink from that label because it might be seen to be a dirty word, In much the same way that I don’t want to shrink from calling myself an atheist.
Allies just doesn’t seem to be committed enough.
On the other hand I wonder if there is utility in me speaking on Feminism if my audience is male. Is it better for me to act as a gateway to feminist understanding, for men or people who have their women filters on?
I don’t know if this last point holds though, as it was me listening to the women of Galactic Suburbia, that lit the flame so to speak, I didn’t need no man telling me about Feminism
I note also that male writers who write about feminist issues tend to have less threats of sexual violence levelled against them, less hand waving of their “silly disturbed hysterical thoughts” is this because the idiots who sprout misogynist crap actually are forced to listen to/read the arguments?
So here I sit. Ever so slightly undecided. Do I explain gender bias, and attack misogyny where I see it?
Do I fall in to my familiar role of teacher? Or should I just act as a signpost gently pushing people in the general direction of good feminist resources?
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Tansy · 680 weeks ago
It is incredibly sad that feminism from the mouth of a man often gets greater and more positive response from the voice of a woman. It's quite devastating, actually. But it doesn't mean those men shouldn't speak, or work to be great allies, and continue their work. Jim Hines is a fabulous example of a man who contributes hugely to the cause, and to explaining issues such as the rape culture in easily understandable ways.
But... yeah. Men can absolutely be feminist. They can also be great allies. I think the important thing is to recognise that there are times to let women talk about their experience, and one of the best things any feminist of any gender can do is to listen to the experiences of a) women and b) those less privileged than yourselves. White feminists, for example, have a lot of listening to do when it comes to women of colour, and the way that feminism has failed or marginalised those women considerably over the years and often continues to do so.
Also... feminists without children need to listen to mothers and understand how feminism has repeatedly failed or marginalised them over the years. Feminist mothers need to listen to the feminists without children and understand how they often feel shut out of the ways womanhood has been defined. Women who have children AND work have been fracturing under the strain of ideals and expectations pressed upon them from previous generations.
No feminist has all the answers, or all the experiences. Gender is only one aspect of that. Just try to be aware that your voice is privileged, and that means that there are people who will listen harder to you than they would to a woman. There's a responsibility in that. (ooh, spiderman reference!)
It's okay for us to be sad or angry that men get listened to more than women, even when the topic is a woman's experienced. But that doesn't mean you should feel like you don't have a place or an identity within feminism. We love our gentleman's auxilary!
Feminism makes everyone's lives better. If you can communicate what it means to other men in particular, and even make it seem less threatening to women, then you are doing good work. But this stopping and thinking and checking whether you are doing the right thing and in the right way... it's a good way to be. Asking these questions is important. As long as you're not talking over anyone else (especially women), I think you should fly the flag proudly!
Of course, I don't speak for feminism, or all women. But I speak for me, and I like what you're doing. Even (especially) when you worry about it.
SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
And thanks Tansy.
Thoraiya · 680 weeks ago
SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
Thoraiya · 680 weeks ago
mark · 680 weeks ago
Still, I think there is value in speaking out about any kind of injustice where you see it (as long as you're willing to be corrected if you get the wrong end of the stick. There have been times - hopefully now in the past - where a lack of understanding on my part has lead me to stupidly take offence on behalf of someone else when I didn't really understand what the offence truly was).
I found Tansy's point above about the individual experience of people and their circumstances very interesting. While hearing people speak in sexist generalisations is always depressing, over the years I've also heard many well meaning people talk in generalisations about aspects of feminism and sometimes unthinkingly cause just as much distress to people in a particular circumstance (I may have done my share of the latter, which makes me very glad to have left behind the pure and shining certainty of my youth). The more I read and hear what people have to say on the subject, the more I realise I don't understand. And should therefore probably try to do less talking and more listening.
Which, on reflection, makes this comment a little silly doesn't it?
-m
ps I've never been one for uniforms, but if there is an Irregular Gentleman's Auxiliary then sign me up…
SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
I don't know Colonel Webb, sounds sort of officious, sure we can't offer you a commission?
mark · 680 weeks ago
I'm officious enough in my day job - Sergeant Webb will do just fine!
-m
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SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
Thoraiya · 680 weeks ago
I like what you do, too.
And yeah, you don't have to be a woman to stop people from demeaning women. Just like I don't have to be Indigenous or gay to give the cold shoulder to someone telling racist jokes, or homophobic jokes; sometimes something as simple as not laughing at a joke (kitchen sink jokes, sexual violence jokes, women-are-emasculating jokes) can be so important, because it's the guys in all-male environments who are often the worst offenders, and it's in pubs and sheds and at football games and car rallies that men feel most safe being misogynist, with the approval of their peers, and being the non-approving peer when there are no women present is TOUGH, but if the majority just stared or changed the subject, then the jokes might not be told, someday! I LOVE THE NON-LAUGHING GUYS!
Hmm, that turned out a bit rant-like, didn't it? Can you tell I've spent the last couple of days in a mostly-male environment making everyone silent and uncomfortable because they "couldn't" tell their favourite jokes? TELL FUNNIER JOKES AND I MIGHT LAUGH!
Thor, God of Lightning and Being Serious With No Jokes Allowed
SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
I suppose I can trust my regular commenters here to chat me when/if I start treading on shaky ground.
Nymeth · 680 weeks ago
Book recommendation: The Myth of Mars and Venus by Deborah Cameron. She's a linguistics professor at Oxford and she has A LOT to say about this. I also think you might really enjoy Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender. She's as wonderful a writer as she is a scientist, which is a rare thing.
"Do I explain gender bias, and attack misogyny where I see it?
Do I fall in to my familiar role of teacher? Or should I just act as a signpost gently pushing people in the general direction of good feminist resources?"
I'd say there's room for all of those things, depending on the context. Personally I'm okay with men identifying as feminists, but I realise not all feminist women take the same stance as me, which is okay. The one thing all of us seem to agree on, though, it's that male feminists/allies should listen to actual women and acknowledge that there are things that they're blind to because they never had to experience them as men; that as committed as they are to gender equality they don't know everything. That's really the main thing.
SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
SB Wright 110p · 680 weeks ago
So basically never talk in place of a woman when she could do it herself
xD
Bonnie Jacobs · 677 weeks ago
You may want to read (at least) the section about "Male feminism and Pro-feminism" found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_and_feminism
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SB Wright 110p · 677 weeks ago